10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

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FedoraRefugee

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by FedoraRefugee »

1. YES!!! Networking has always been such a PITA for any OS. I dont know how to simplify this though, there are just so many variables. Maybe a "samba button" that just does the most simple, default setup?

2. Coming from Fedora I can honestly say that Pulseaudio is a must for some people but should not be default. Just give us a working alsa setup that works for everyone, then if a user wants pulseaudio they can install it.

3. Is this a problem in Mint? Distros like Fedora that do not allow for proprietary drivers I can understand why this is a problem, but with my nVidia card Mint just picked it up and prompted me to select for it. I dont believe it could get any easier. You need to remember that there are a lot of FOSS zealots who do not want to run proprietary drivers or codecs.

4. Agreed. along with many other apps that just do not have a legitimate Linux counterpart. This is par for the course though and with a wider Linux userbase these apps would be created.

5. Also agreed. I dont think this is so much a problem anymore though. What cant you do in Mint with a GUI? I am a strong CLI user but I have installed and tweaked a few Mint desktops now without ever touching a terminal.

6. I wonder how widespread this problem actually is though? How many people are actually effected by this? Not to take away from it, there are many bi/multi-lingual people who could use this. But enough to justify making it a default vs. the ability to easily add other languages yourself?

7. I will give you this also. I hate to see choice equationed out of Linux by one size fits all apps, but I have nothing against a better ability to sync between all apps.

8.Emphatically disagree! Never! Not on your life! What DE do YOU suggest? KDE? Gnome? See the can of worms? I HATE Gnome and KDE both!!! I am a dedicated Xfce user and would go to BSD or something else before I would be forced into one of the bloat brother's DE's. How about those that prefer light WM's such as Fluxbox? No this would be a very ill-advised move, as if it could ever happen anyway. Linux is about CHOICE, not about trying to drag people away from Windblows. You cannot force Linux on people, if they want to use it they will.

9. Fedora and debian have this. Along with their 3.whatever GB DVD. Debian has a 3 DVD install system? What is the point, the packages on the iso are soon outdate you have to update anyway. No, the way to go is a light iso and then using the package manager to install what you need. You want a list? Open Synaptic!

I want to also explain another mode of thought to any interested. I understand I am using the wrong distro, I understand Ubuntu's stated goal of turning Windows users into Linux users, and I also once had this evangelical mentality. No more though. After 4 years as a Fedora Forum regular I have come to the conclusion that Linux is NOT for everyone and that most people are actually better off using Windows! Look, Linux is great. It does not get any easier or better than Mint currently is. In fact, though Mint is still Linux, and is still great for power users like me, it has reached the point where new folks are never forced to learn how to use a terminal. They never learn to manually mount a device, edit a config file, boot into init 3, or utilize any of the wonderful things that makes Linux; Linux. Okay, most Windows users dont know diddly about their OS either. I also use Vista, I think that, despite a few flaws, it is also a great OS, and I know how to use it inside and out also. Some of us like this stuff, most just want a functional computer. I understand all this. But I am adamant that Linux is not for people who do not want to learn. Catering to these people in order to grab a handful of users from MS is actually a disservice to Linux in general. We are turning this OS into something it was not designed for. Listen, Linux will NEVER rule the world. Its time is almost up, it will eventually be buried as will Windows. We are in the infancy of the computer age, Windows has not been around that long in the big scheme of things. Heck, I still play on my TRS-80 model 3. There is much better stuff just around the corner. What difference does it make if the masses are using Windows or Mac or linux or something else? What difference does it really make to you what OS I use? What is gained by more people using Linux? Does Linux make more money? Do you get a kickback? Do you really think Linux will ever see enough market share to gain serious vendor notice? Just use the OS because YOU like it. There is nothing wrong with turning people on to Linux, I still do. I will gladly give days of my time to help someone accept and use this OS. As long as they WANT TO MAKE THE EFFORT! This is the key. Build it and they will come. If they dont come then why should YOU worry about it?

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I realize I am a voice in the wilderness in this forum, that is cool. I just wanted to explain another view with my little rant. Dont change your goals, it has made Mint into the most user friendly distro around, and is the best distro for a user that just wants things to work right out of the box with no thought or effort. This is not a bad thing. Easier is always better, just not at the expense of function...or choice.
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MALsPa
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Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by MALsPa »

FedoraRefugee wrote:Linux is NOT for everyone... Easier is always better, just not at the expense of function...or choice.
+1 on your rant!
garda

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by garda »

I vote for point number:
5. Many people whom I've helped with troubleshooting/fixing some problems in Linux Mint would simply sigh and ask, "Do you know of a practical way to do this?" whenever I tell them to open the Terminal and type in some mumbo jumbos. Yes, knowledge is power, and everybody has to learn something he/she wants to become proficient with. Unfortunately, not everybody has the time to do it. GUI makes up for simplicity to typical users or, to keep this thread consistent, Average Joes. :)

And my own oppinion:
1. Hardware compatibility and management. This one is obvious enough, I suppose. But even troubleshooting hardware compatibility issues would have been much easier had there been some GUI's to keep the Terminal out of sight. I'm aware of the fact that most hardware manufacturers don't test their products for compliance with Linux, thus they are mostly to be blamed for this. So again, at least provide as many GUI's as possible to make it easier for beginners to fix the issues themselves.

2. Power management. Ouch, this one has been a sour spot in Linux Mint (also in Ubuntu). Many laptop users complain about getting far shorter battery life under Mint (also Ubuntu) than under Windows. Hibernate and suspend are two major power management features needed by laptop users, and either or both of them doesn't work right out of the box on most laptops. A number of workarounds are scattered across the Internet, but none of them are convenient to follow (for beginners) and some don't fix anything. My friend's laptop (a Lenovo) loses power completely if put into hibernation in just slightly over an hour. On several others, I encountered higher operating temperature and erratic disk activity.

3. Boot time. Shave it off, please. This aspect is very crucial. Don't expect people to wait for a minute (sometimes even more) before they can actually use their computers. And it is also somewhat related to point no. 2 above. Less boot time means less power gets wasted everytime a user starts his/her computer. Some folks who don't have luck with hibernate and suspend seem pretty happy with Mint as long as they can get to the login screen in 20 seconds or less. I want to echo here what Intel developers said: Don't settle to make the boot faster, make the boot fast. (See Booting Linux in Five Seconds)

4. Personal Information Management (PIM) softwares. Users need to have their appointments, to-do lists and notes in one place. Many of them also need some type of phone synchronization so that they can conveniently transfer those datas from their computers onto their phones and vice versa. I personally spent hours to find and test various softwares for this purpose. I think Wammu, Gammu, Gnome Phone Manager and OpenSync are among the most competent softwares I've come across with for phone synchronization thus far, but have yet found a way to sync the PIM datas with anything.

Those are all I can think of right now. Perhaps I'll get back to this post and add something that's not here yet.
qbicdesign

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by qbicdesign »

looks like we're on the same wavelength....

My interest is a little more in the corporate desktop, but my needs are actually very much in line with those you have proposed.
  1. I agree, and ideally i'd like to see an option to join a Windows domain right away. Opensuse 10.2 has it, why can't Mint follow the same model?
  2. audio has not been a big problem for me in linux since about 5yrs ago - ALSA has always worked fine
  3. Some older hardware and some monitors give me out of range problems with Mint, usually during boot, but once booted all is ok. In my experience, with other distros tho, playing with monitor configs can be a nightmare. e.g. the monitor test works fine, so you save settings and on next boot you get black screen or kicked back to console. That's never happened to me with Mint, and i'd like to keep it that way.
  4. AMsn is closest to windows messenger in look/feel, and webcams are also supported and its available thru synaptic. (http://www.amsn-project.net/) IMO Skype should also be in default install. This too has audio and video
  5. I'm with Oceanwatcher on this one. The only way i could get a domain join to work was using CLI. Likewise-Open's own GUI didn't work for me.
  6. yes, yes , yes!! - Pretty much anyone in a non-english speaking nation (myself included) needs to be able to switch languages easily, and configuring that should be a breeze (like it is in windows xp install)
  7. Well, kinda - i agree in principal, but in a corporate environment you will likely be using Evolution with exchange plugin, and the address book in that case needs to come from the exchange server. But apart from that i see no reason to have more than 1.
  8. from my understanding the KDE and fluxbox versions of Mint are not developed by Mint's core team, but rather by the Mint community and i think the Mint team have made that clear - if you look at the download page you'll see it divided clearly into 2 sections Main Editions and Community Editions. I do understand what Fedorarefugee means about Linux being about choice, but i'm with Oceanwatcher in the sense that the Mint flavour needs to stay clearly focussed on one purpose - weening Windows users off Windows and onto Mint. Note that I say Mint not Linux (they'll discover Mint is Linux over time), Linux has failed at this purpose for the last 15yrs, purely IMO due to lack of focus. Mint has provided a great opportunity to refocus. Of course other DE's can be developed for Mint, but that should remain a community thing, and not something that the core team should waste time/focus/energy on, or in another 15yrs the world will still be suffering from MS (get the pun?).
  9. Historically this has lead to problems - Linux used to be like that, where you could choose apps during install, but the downside of that is that Linux apps in general have their own names, and therefore to the Windows user it can be very puzzling. If there is an apps list, it should contain only app names which are cross platform (e.g Skype, Filezilla, Openoffice, Firefox), or the app selection should be done on a question/answer basis - e.g Do you need an FTP prgram? Do you want to be able to work with Microsoft Office files? Do you want to talk to friends who use Windows Messenger?
my additional wishlist:
  1. Everyone's keyboard has a windows key - why can't Mint use it for the things Windows users are familiar with? This how-to is a good start: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MappingWindowsKey - lets have these settings by default!
  2. Should be able to scan for Wifi access points, and connect to them with a simple click, and enter password (just like you can in XP) and without having to unlock your networking GUI first!!!
  3. add a program to desktop by right clicking on the icon in main menu.
Regarding Fedorarefugee's 2 cents:
Its ok if you've run out of steam, just say so. Others like me and Oceanwatcher however, see unfulfilled potential in Linux and as long as that's the case we will be committed to seeing that potential.
One main thing that your 2 cents doesn't cover is the ridiculous amount of fees paid in licensing to MS. For the small company corporate environment this is crippling, and when Linux offers the chance to wave hello again to all that wasted money, then its a very big deal. To the home user, i partly see your point , though it seems extremely defeatist. If Linux offers choice (and it does) then it can offer that choice to anyone. Right now most people have no choice, they're tied to MS and they hate that fact but no-one can yet offer them a viable alternative. Mint i believe can be, and I'll keep you all posted here on how I'm starting to use it in corporate workplace, which is where i believe the key is. 7hrs a day in the office using Linux, and soon enough people will want it at home too.
msuggs

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by msuggs »

Oceanwatcher wrote:1. Connect a new Mac to a Windows network and the Windows PC's just pop up.
Strange. I go to the Main Menu-->Network and there all my Windows shares are. I have the option of logging in with a different username if my Linux account differs from the windows one (XP can't do that). What more is needed?
Oceanwatcher wrote:2. Audio. This need to be simplified and again - just work out of the box.
Agreed, Pulse Audio shows promise and hopefully the bugs will be ironed out soon
Oceanwatcher wrote:3. Monitor configuration.
Preferences-->Screen Resolution. Some may have to use EnvyNG to get their cards working nicely but even Windows won't do that out of the box. Actually EnvyNG is much simpler than a clunky drivers CD that may come with your XP system or new video card.
Oceanwatcher wrote:4. An application that can fully replace MSN.
Have you tried aMSN?
Oceanwatcher wrote:5. Make nice GUI's for all tasks.
A great task for you would be to make a list a all the things you can do via GUI compared to those you can't. I think you'd find the list fairly unbalanced in favour of the GUI these days. This is one area that Ubuntu and Mint have really pushed forward in recent years.
Oceanwatcher wrote:6. Select multiple languages during installation.
.
I don't have a lot of experience with this one. How long does it take to add a language back in after install?
Oceanwatcher wrote:7. One common addressbook.
OK, this would be a nice feature but considering the nature of choice and variety of apps it may be unachievable in the short term.
Oceanwatcher wrote:8. One common window manager.
Linux is about choice. I can't say much more than that. If I just want to cripple myself with one window manager and one desktop environment I'd probably use Windows.
Oceanwatcher wrote:9. A list of applications that you can choose at installation that will be downloaded.

The Software Portal or Synaptic. It doesn't get much easier. Perhaps what you're after is a GUI app called ATTYMOW (All the things you miss on Windows)
Oceanwatcher wrote:So what are you missing in Mint?
Nothing. Neither do my wife, kids and mother. Mint does everything we need and then some. One of the nicest things is just how un-windows I can make it :)
Last edited by msuggs on Wed Oct 29, 2008 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FedoraRefugee

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by FedoraRefugee »

qbicdesign wrote:[*]from my understanding the KDE and fluxbox versions of Mint are not developed by Mint's core team, but rather by the Mint community and i think the Mint team have made that clear - if you look at the download page you'll see it divided clearly into 2 sections Main Editions and Community Editions. I do understand what Fedorarefugee means about Linux being about choice, but i'm with Oceanwatcher in the sense that the Mint flavour needs to stay clearly focussed on one purpose - weening Windows users off Windows and onto Mint. Note that I say Mint not Linux (they'll discover Mint is Linux over time), Linux has failed at this purpose for the last 15yrs, purely IMO due to lack of focus. Mint has provided a great opportunity to refocus. Of course other DE's can be developed for Mint, but that should remain a community thing, and not something that the core team should waste time/focus/energy on, or in another 15yrs the world will still be suffering from MS (get the pun?).[/*]
I can go along with this. Fedora also is a very gnome-centric distro. I do not mind this just as long as my favorite DE/WM can still be installed. BTW, you can use any DE or WM in any distro. I have read where some of this forum's gurus do NOT suggest doing this and I can understand why because of the special Mint tools. But anyone with average Linux ability can get anything to work in Mint so this is not a problem at all as long as the alternatives exist. I would just hate to see a Linux world where everything is Gnome though.

Regarding Fedorarefugee's 2 cents:
Its ok if you've run out of steam, just say so. Others like me and Oceanwatcher however, see unfulfilled potential in Linux and as long as that's the case we will be committed to seeing that potential.
One main thing that your 2 cents doesn't cover is the ridiculous amount of fees paid in licensing to MS. For the small company corporate environment this is crippling, and when Linux offers the chance to wave hello again to all that wasted money, then its a very big deal. To the home user, i partly see your point , though it seems extremely defeatist. If Linux offers choice (and it does) then it can offer that choice to anyone. Right now most people have no choice, they're tied to MS and they hate that fact but no-one can yet offer them a viable alternative. Mint i believe can be, and I'll keep you all posted here on how I'm starting to use it in corporate workplace, which is where i believe the key is. 7hrs a day in the office using Linux, and soon enough people will want it at home too.
See, this is where I have to differ from you. I agree with everything you say about MS, this is beside the point. Linux has been offered, free of charge, and perfectly usable for many years now. I would say that within the last three it has become simple enough for anyone with a sixth grade intelligence and the willingness to learn. The only thing keeping people from Linux and stuck under Microsoft's thumb is themselves. I do not want to say this with cockiness or arrogance but I have been through the "Linux stages" that all users go through. I have manned a forum for 4 years, a forum for a much more technical distro, and I have seen the people coming through looking to be spoonfed and trolling for any excuse to bash linux. Hey, I broke away from Windows XP for more than 3 years in which I used Fedora solely to run my home business, publish my advertising, edit graphics, spreadsheets, and all the rest with no problems at all. I reluctantly went back to Vista due to formatting problems between OO.o and Office 2007 as I am going for a graduate level degree, and the fact that I managed to purchase Vista Ultimate through my school for $14!!! I am glad I did, but the reason I mention this is that trying to install Vista Ultimate instead of the Vista Home Premium that came with my HP laptop was more of a nightmare than most Linux distros i have installed in the last 3 years. The Windows install is not easy or trouble free. Finding a working wireless driver was a major undertaking and I had many kinks to work through. Ease of use has a direct correlation to knowledge. Linux is MUCH easier to use than Windows for someone starting with 0 knowledge and if anyone would like to argue this point then please open a thread and I would be glad to support this in many ways! I do not mean to be defeatist about Linux, I prefer this OS over anything else. I am simply trying to put things in perspective. You cannot dictate what YOU think is best for everyone else. The fact that Linux is not more popular is due to the fact that most people simply do not care and use Windows because that is what came on their computer, that is what all their software runs on, they can easily get the computer fixed when Windows borks itself, and that is what their boss runs. There are probably a ton more reasons. I have switched many people to Linux through the years. My whole family, from my mid-seventy year old mom and dad to my sister to my wife and our five kids runs Linux. My relatives all run it. Every last one of them accomplishes everything they need to do on a personal level with this OS. It is NOT hard, it is NOT deficient, it is NOT "almost" ready. It has been ready for years. The only thing keeping people from using it is laziness and the lack of motivation to learn something new. I said it before and I will keep on saying it; Linux is NOT for most people. Can they learn it? Would they be happier using it? Would the world be a groovier place? Yep. But trying to force them to see this is the ultimate folly.
qbicdesign

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by qbicdesign »

You cannot dictate what YOU think is best for everyone else
Why not? MS entire marketing strategy is based on that... and they seem to have done pretty well out of it
qbicdesign

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by qbicdesign »

omns wrote:
Oceanwatcher wrote:1. Connect a new Mac to a Windows network and the Windows PC's just pop up.
Strange. I go to the Main Menu-->Network and there all my Windows shares are. I have the option of logging in with a different username if my Linux account differs from the windows one (XP can't do that). What more is needed?
a bug in latest version of nautilus means that you can see the conmputers, but cannot view any of the actual shared folders.
msuggs

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by msuggs »

qbicdesign wrote:a bug in latest version of nautilus means that you can see the conmputers, but cannot view any of the actual shared folders.
OK, I'll concede that one. I'd forgotten that I'd had to work around this one in Elyssa. Still, once fixed it was just a matter of bookmarking the share and all was well. Hopefully this will be rectified in Mint 6.
FedoraRefugee

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by FedoraRefugee »

qbicdesign wrote:
You cannot dictate what YOU think is best for everyone else
Why not? MS entire marketing strategy is based on that... and they seem to have done pretty well out of it
I see! So, in essence, you just want a free Windows? :wink:
qbicdesign

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by qbicdesign »

finally someone understands,...
:P
qbicdesign

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by qbicdesign »

Good idea about the testing.
I actually am about to install Mint on my home desktop PC, which has dual monitors + TV. GFX is Nvidia FX5600 with DVI, VGA and Spdif (connected to my TV) outs lets see if i have the same config problems as you.
I'll try to take notes on what doesn't happen as it should, and with any configuration problems.
Generally speaking, my hardware is all older than 3yrs, but some of it is a little unusual, so it should be an interesting test.
garda

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by garda »

OceanWatcher wrote:Maybe this is working well with nVidia and ATI, but I will let other decide on that. Anyone running two or three monitors here?
I have to reboot my computer (sometimes several times) to get dual-monitor with a nVidia card working in Mint. :lol:
Still haven't found out any effective workaround to fix this issue. So I still can't ditch Windows and PhotoShop just yet. :(
OceanWatcher wrote:BUT - do not offer any help. And take notes as it progresses. What do people do wrong? What stop them in the process? Also - they can not ask each other for help. The goal is to create a "Home alone" environment to see what can be done to make things easier. I just gave some friends a CD and they are going to install it at home on their own. I will let you know what happened.
I've conducted this type of research ahead of you then, although I didn't gather them in one place. Rather, I let them install Mint at their own homes. The result was not satisfactory. They simply would wipe out their Linux installation as they encountered problems without anyone to get help from. Most of them just didn't want to bother, which is understandable. I mean, they were non-geeks and very spoiled by Windows or Mac. However, a very few of them who encountered good out-of-the-box experience (i.e. those who had everything work right after the first boot) still keep it, although they don't use it intensively. I limited my research solely on Linux Mint, by the way.
msuggs

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by msuggs »

Oceanwatcher wrote:It was mentioned that a lot of bugs are showstoppers for Mint. This is what I mean when I say that would like to see a feature freeze until those things have been fixed.
For problems like getting Network shares to show properly the answer doesn't lie with Mint but the gnome project. Perhaps your energies would be better spent targeting these bugs and problems in the various projects that Mint pulls together into an OS and seeking a resolution there.
FedoraRefugee

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Oceanwatcher,

I have been reading your posts in this thread and the networking thread. I disagree with your outlook but admire your passion. I just think it is misplaced. But I want to suggest something to you. I mean this in all seriousness, you can do this, this idea I am about to tell you is EXACTY what Linux and FOSS is about. It is the same as Clem did, and texstar. And really any other "minor" distro you can think of. Klaus Knopper is probably among the best known and most talented individuals with a "different" vision for Linux.

Create your OWN distro oceanwatcher. Use Mint as a base, just remove all the trademarked stuff. This is what open source is about. You can turn Mint into exactly what YOU want with very little knowledge or effort. Create an ISO, a website, and if it is good you will get a following and it will grow.

There are many people in the Linux world who can help you do this. Instead of insisting that everyone else "fix" Linux to your liking, you need to fix it yourself. Start small. Ubuntu has a tool to respin custom live ISO's, not sure what it is called. Fedora has a better tool called Revisor. Maybe you can compile Revisor for Mint, I dont know what the deps are. Anyway, it is not difficult these days to create your own "spin" of a distro with the apps you want installed. Learn this then move further. Create a theme, bring in the best from other distros. Why not try Xfce instead of Gnome? This might cure many problems you are currently experiencing, and Xfce is a very straightforward, simplified DE. e17 is even better. Have you looked at other "easy" distros such as Gos, PClOS, puppy? Maybe play with the LFS project for a while, see what goes into a Linux distro. Go ahead and install Gentoo from stage 3. It is relatively easy, you just have to carefully follow the online manual. You will quickly learn what you need to know and you will also gain a better idea of what Linux actually is and why it attracts the kind of people it does. You will learn that the terminal and the command line is nothing to fear but is, in fact a powerful tool that opens many more possibilities.

Oceanwatcher, my friend, I could write for hours on this. You see, I have a passion for Linux also. It is just a different passion than yours. Go back and re-read my posts. My friend Linux will NEVER rule the world. It will NEVER overthrow Microsoft. It simply cannot. Do not waste your time on that foolishness. Instead, put your energies into building Linux into what YOU envision it should be. Enjoy your time using it. Keep learning, because this is why most of us use it. Windows is boring, with Linux you learn new things every day. Some people will embrace Linux for what it is, most will not. But anyone that tries to come up with a "one size fits all" solution like you are suggesting will soon find out that very few people are interested. A good case in point is the fact that we have KDE, Xfce and Fluxbox community editions of this distro. I wonder when the e17 version will come out? I may be interested in working on that myself, e17 rocks! Why not try it for yourself?
FedoraRefugee

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by FedoraRefugee »

Oceanwatcher wrote:I understand your point, but I do not think it is the way to go for me. Better contribute to something that already exist than add to the confusion. And I do not think it is yelling or complaining. We all live in a world where choices has to be made. And if someone present a good argument for a case, then it should be considered. The things I have on my list might not get fixed right now, but I think many of them are important enough to be fixed sometime in the future. And as the list get shorter, the number of users will grow.

Sometimes I sense that the superuser do not like the idea of getting too many users in. It kinda "lowers" the status of Linux as a poweruser OS. But fighting this is a bit like trying to stop the rain. There are enough users that would like to see Mint and other distros spread to "everyone" that it will succeedeventually. Of course, we can always discuss how you define success :-)
But all you are doing here is spinning your wheels. Oh some of the things you mention are actually areas that do need improvment, but many of the things you suggest will simply never happen.

Your second paragraph illuminates exactly the misconception that many hold about serious Linux users who have been using this distro for a few years or more. The simple truth is we just outgrew the stage you are now in. I can link you to posts that I made in 2002, 2003 that sound much like yours today. The typical, "things Linux needs to do to attract the masses" and "is Linux ready yet" type threads. It took me a few years to figure out it was MY stupidity that was the problem, not Linux. Do I care how many users "come in?" Why would I care about this? There are just as many idiots using Linux today as there was 15 years ago! There are just as many more people using Windows who will always look on Linux users as geeks. I dont give a rat's you know what what anyone else thinks about me! I just use the OS I love for everything except what I need to use Vista for because it IS a Windows world. But your quote, "fighting this is a bit like stopping the rain..." This is comical at the least! Who is fighting? Who am I trying to stop? I gave you advice on the only way you will accomplish what you want. Linux has had 16 years now, the last five, at least, in which anyone with half a brain can use it, to spread to "everyone." And dont get me wrong, it is growing. In fact, I have argued in the Fedora Forum that instead of the oft quoted 2-5% I wouldnt be surprised if the worldwide figure for Linux desktops wasnt in the double digits! There are OVER 3 million Fedora 9 users alone! Ubuntu is WAY more popular, though numbers are hard to guess due to the nature of Linux; free downloads. How do I define success? I think what Linux has already done is well beyond what could be called "success." From one man's science fair project to desktop, enterprise, server and embedded. In 16 years! But I would not hold my breath on Linux unseating Microsoft. You sound like i am fighting you, trying to hold you back from conquering the world. Buddy, I bet six months from now you are back using Windows and I will be quietly plugging along using the Linux distro of my choice day in and day out. I have seen your type come and go over the years. Really, I wish you luck. I hope you make an impact in Brazil. Linux is growing in many regions of the world. It is getting easier to use every day, distro release by distro release. I have nothing against this. But Microsoft is also evolving and growing. Mac has its hand in the game too. The difference is Linux is under a FOSS model and while this has many advantages it also limits this OS from ever seriously competing.

Ah well...Like you I am just spinning my wheels here myself. I would be curious to talk with you in a year or so provided you stay with Linux that long. I would enjoy seeing how your preceptions have changed. I will simply wish you luck in your quest for now and will be reading your posts with interest. I still cannot understand how you think you are helping or changing anything by your suggestions, but I do understand and appreciate the need to express your opinions. That is why I hang out in forums myself.
qbicdesign

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by qbicdesign »

I just don't understand some people....
This was a constructive thread - and yet again, its been hijacked (as happens too often).
Linux IS about choice, and WE (the other posters in this thread) choose to try to make it better in ways that would benefit Average Joe.
Linux Geek doesn't need this thread, cos he can do all the "make it better" by digging on forums for days on end, and using CLI. but please give Average Joe's voice a chance to be heard without shouting over it. Its a quiet voice, and if you listen carefully you might actually hear what its saying.

Really - i read nothing at all constructive in the last post. My polite suggestion is that if you don't agree with what we're trying to achieve here, just don't contribute to the thread. I can see that while you're maybe a seasoned Linux user, from what i can tell you are not yet a seasoned Mint contributor (Level 1) just as I am not, but i have actually taken the time to try to understand what Mint is about - reading the FAQs page and the About Us page, and its certainly not about Linux elitism, nor defeatism. It's about trying to develop a very good distro which is actually growing rapidly in popularity due to its accessibility to Average Joes, its ease of installation, its easy to understand interface, its good selection of pre-installed software. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make something good even better. In terms of day to day usability IMO Mint is way better than XP, but only once you have dealt with the "show-stoppers". I'm certain that my mum (now over 70) would find Mint easier to use than Windows XP or Vista (if i can get her anywhere near a computer), but if it won't install without show stoppers, then thats very bad. If this simple aim is so misguided, this thread will die anyway with no progress. OK enough.
=============================

Oceanwatcher's points regarding languages and practicalities relating to geography/infrastructure are extremely valid. I too am an english speaker living and working in another country, but unlike in the Brazilian mountains, our technology infrastructure is possibly the best in the world, yet many people are extremely poor. Here piracy is rife even in companies. Not because people don't care, but simply because legit MS and other software is so expensive that to use it can mean the difference between your small company failing or not, between you having food on your plate or not. Ubuntu would not be the success it is in Africa (and other places) if these things didn't matter, and since Mint is based on Ubuntu, Mint wouldn't exist either.

Many computer users here need to be able to switch between 2 or 3 languages, and the same will apply in many other European countries. Almost everyone here speaks at least 2 languages fluently, and its even common for people to speak 5 fluently. In my experience, people who live in English speaking nations are unable to grasp the importance of language switching, but thats not surprising. Its not until you go live someplace else that this particular lightbulb goes on, but it does need to be taken very seriously. Linux in fact wins over XP in this department in general - I don't have to install a special version of the distro just to get the GUI in my language, and i can in fact chose what language i want to use on the login splash. But what's not acceptable is logging out just to change the keyboard language, as that kills workflow. I admit that i'm just starting to explore this aspect of Mint, and I'll post my findings.
FedoraRefugee

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by FedoraRefugee »

qbicdesign wrote:I just don't understand some people....
This was a constructive thread - and yet again, its been hijacked (as happens too often).
Linux IS about choice, and WE (the other posters in this thread) choose to try to make it better in ways that would benefit Average Joe.
Linux Geek doesn't need this thread, cos he can do all the "make it better" by digging on forums for days on end, and using CLI. but please give Average Joe's voice a chance to be heard without shouting over it. Its a quiet voice, and if you listen carefully you might actually hear what its saying.

Really - i read nothing at all constructive in the last post. My polite suggestion is that if you don't agree with what we're trying to achieve here, just don't contribute to the thread. I can see that while you're maybe a seasoned Linux user, from what i can tell you are not yet a seasoned Mint contributor (Level 1) just as I am not, but i have actually taken the time to try to understand what Mint is about - reading the FAQs page and the About Us page, and its certainly not about Linux elitism, nor defeatism. It's about trying to develop a very good distro which is actually growing rapidly in popularity due to its accessibility to Average Joes, its ease of installation, its easy to understand interface, its good selection of pre-installed software. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make something good even better. In terms of day to day usability IMO Mint is way better than XP, but only once you have dealt with the "show-stoppers". I'm certain that my mum (now over 70) would find Mint easier to use than Windows XP or Vista (if i can get her anywhere near a computer), but if it won't install without show stoppers, then thats very bad. If this simple aim is so misguided, this thread will die anyway with no progress. OK enough.
Maybe you should follow your own advice! :wink:

What, exactly, do you say that is constructive in this part of your post? All you are doing is trying to one up me with the passive/aggressive bit and accusations of hijacking, which is exactly what you are also doing here! I have as much right to voice my opinions as you do in this forum. I can see that my posts were obviously above your comprehension level, for that I apologize. My polite suggestion is that if you cannot understand my opinion you should not contribute to the conversation I was obviously having with Oceanview. I can see from your posts in other threads and this one that you simply do not yet get the fact that Linux is Linux. They might be different car manufacturers but they all use the same parts. Some just use parts that others do not. I strongly suggest you go back and read my posts a little more carefully, there is nothing elitist or defeatist in them and I clearly state more than once that making Linux easier to use is a good thing. That is why I am here. Once again, you have every right to voice your opinion and I am definitely not shouting over you, or anyone else. Just keep in mind that I have the right to voice my own opinion, right or wrong. Maybe if YOU listened a little more carefully you could benefit from experience and maybe learn something.
msuggs

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by msuggs »

Oceanwatcher wrote:What I would like is to hear your experiences with total beginners.
My only experience is with my family. I set up a desktop and laptop for them and then showed them where the basics were like Firefox and Open Office. From there they just ran with it. No complaints and virtually no assistance from me to get other things working like managing their ipods, audio and photo collections and other aspects of their on-line lives. To be honest I get much less calls for help than when we were a dual platform household.

In a perfect world there would be more suppliers out there providing pre-installed Linux machines where things just work out of the box. Dare to dream :)
msuggs

Re: 10 things to fix to make Mint what what we need it to be

Post by msuggs »

Oceanwatcher wrote:I do sometimes build PC's for friends. Is there a tool that can "pre-install" Mint in the same way as Windows on a new PC?
There a several tools to achieve this from ones that make iso images of a working system through to full server based deployment. Google around, I'm sure you'll find one to do what you need :)
Oceanwatcher wrote:Also - Ubuntu has a function I am missing in Mint - the ability to install into a Windows filesystem. This is a great way to try it out. Anyone know if this will be coming?
There is a possibility that Wubi will be in Mint 6. A search of the forums will find the discussion for you.
Oceanwatcher wrote:I love taking pictures ( http://www.oceanwatcher.com ), but have been missing a substitute for Adobe Lightroom. A little while ago, I found something that look very promising - http://www.digikam.org/ .
F-Spot is also a nice program as well , is gtk based and does a similar job to digikam.

In general these questions highlight that possibly you have many questions regarding Mint that generated the original conversation in this thread. Perhaps new threads for each would yield more results for you :)
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