POLL! - Do you want mintTools in a separate menu entry?

[Zwopper]

Would you like to see the "mintTools" grouped together under a separate entry in the mintMenu? - Though not removed from their original places.

This subject pops up every now and then, so I thought I'd see if a poll could make a difference!

For future mintTools it would be great to already have everything in one place, one could also place the settings for the mintMenu here.

The mintTools are one of the reasons I recommend Linux Mint to total beginners, but imagine how easy it would be to guide someone with mint's own tools all in one place...
"Q: How do I remove the computer icon from my desktop?
A: "Just open mintTools in the mintMenu, and click on mintDesktop!" - for instance!

...by the way, I think the text on the menu button should say: "MintMenu", "Mint", or just "Menu" - or maybe nothing at all...
Reference points in the user guide that keeps coming back to "the friendly-easy-yo-use" mintTools" would be a big advantage as well!

The mintTools is yet another thing that sets Linux Mint apart from all the other distros out there, definitely something to be proud of, and to "make noise about"!

So tell me what you think and why!
KDE TastyMenu:

[Husse]

Actually I thought they were to be in a separate category??
Edit/Second thought
In both places?

[Paul_Vandenberg]

I don't agree with all the Mint tools being in a separate menu. I think they belong in Administration or Preferencess with the other administration or preference tools. I just think that it doesn't matter where a tool came from. It makes more sense to place them where they functionally belong.

Paul

[Jernau]

I can see the arguments on both sides here - but I actually voted 'no' and here is why:

When faced with a menu, users are usually asking themselves "what do I want to do?". If the answer is "surf the Internet" then it's clear that they should look in the "Internet" menu entry, if the answer is "watch a movie" then it's clear that they should look in the "Sound and Video" menu entry, however if the answer is "install new software" or "configure my desktop" how would they know that they need to look in the "Mint Tools" menu entry?

For expert users (who already know what all the Mint Tools are and what they do), then I can see how it could be a convenience to have them all in one place, but for a beginner this is almost certainly counter-intuitive. As expert users are free to create the "Mint Tools" menu item if they want to, I believe it should remain as it is.

[Zwopper]

Edit/Second thought
In both places?

I second this!
My thoughts are:
A separate "MintMenu" A N D in their "right places" in the admin and "what-not -menu"!

[Zwopper]

...how would they know that they need to look in the "Mint Tools" menu entry?

Because this would be well presented in the release notes, in the user guide,
and in an improved version of mintAssistant that will explain certain matters upon first boot,
(among other things present the mintTools and their use),
during installation (images like in Mandriva for instance),
and also be available as an extended help system.
(Last thoughts are just a dream so far, but it wouldn't be difficult to extend the functionality of the mintAssistant.)

Or maybe this is a job for the mintGuide?

[Zwopper]

This is absolutely not related but i love Swedish !
That language is so cool... (i love all germanic/nordic languages)
Jag önskar jag kunde tala svensk !

Concerning the topic, i voted 'yes' but i think Jernau has some good points...
My second vote goes for an option in mintDesktop.

Hehe!
Your Swedish is 10 billion times better then my french, and THAT is one seriously cool language!
Navet Suedois - Tres bien!
The coolest sounding language on earth must be Icelandic though - and it's a beautiful country too!

[Zwopper]

All activity in this thread is good!
Anyway, maybe a "mintTool menu entry" can be added by the user from a question in the mintAssistant on first boot, after some nice explanation.

[Jernau]

A separate "MintMenu" A N D in their "right places" in the admin and "what-not -menu"!

I'm not sure that having the mintTools in multiple places is the right answer, as I think it will be confusing to new users ("is this mintBackup the same as the other one?") and cluttered for everyone else.

Because this would be well presented in the release notes, in the user guide, and in an improved version of mintAssistant <snip>

If a feature has to be presented clearly in the release notes and other help systems, then the chances are that it's not an intuitive feature. As I believe Linux Mint should strive to be the most intuitive Linux distribution, any changes that potentially reduce usability have to be carefully considered.

I'm sticking with my 'no' vote.

[Zwopper]

I'm not sure that having the mintTools in multiple places is the right answer, as I think it will be confusing to new users ("is this mintBackup the same as the other one?") and cluttered for everyone else.

If a feature has to be presented clearly in the release notes and other help systems, then the chances are that it's not an intuitive feature. As I believe Linux Mint should strive to be the most intuitive Linux distribution, any changes that potentially reduce usability have to be carefully considered.

I'm sticking with my 'no' vote.

You mean like in Windows where you press the Start button to switch of the computer, or like in Vista when you click the icon to power down your pc and it goes to hibernate, or like in OS X when you click the red button with the "X" in it and think you're closing an application, but all you're doing is closing the window it runs in, NOT funny if you have firefox with 40+ tabs opened, click the red button, and later on click the firefox icon and all your previously opened tabs are gone! - yeah undocumented "features" makes them really intuitive and self explanatory!

By the way, the redundancy of having mintTools in more then one place exists in Linux Mint ver 4...

For instance "mintInstall" and "Software Portal" are the same application

And just because something appears in more then on place doesn't make it obsolete...
Some people like to have a "Home" icon on the desktop, in the menu, in the panel, configured as a keyboard shortcut - AND as a mouse gesture - It's all about choices!

And the chance that an author of an operating system in 2008, like in your example, would include two different applications called "mintBackup" is probably slimmer then my chances to get elected for president of Sweden this summer! (@everyone that doesn't know: Sweden is a monarchy! )

[Jernau]

You mean like in Windows where you press the Start button to switch of the computer, or like in Vista when you click the icon to power down your pc and it goes to hibernate, or like in OS X when you click the red button with the "X" in it and think you're closing an application, but all you're doing is closing the window it runs in, NOT funny if you have firefox with 40+ tabs opened, click the red button, and later on click the firefox icon and all your previously opened tabs are gone! - yeah undocumented "features" makes them really intuitive and self explanatory!

I agree with you that other operating systems are perfectly capable of having unintuitive features, such as the ones you listed, though I think that calling any of these 'undocumented' might be stretching the truth a little. (In Windows, go to "Help and Support" then type "shutdown", and you are presented with pages full of information, including a simple guide to using "Start->Shut Down"). In fact, I believe that help and documentation is one area where Linux is going to be playing catch-up to Windows (and OSX) for some time to come.

My point wasn't that undocumented features are always intuitive, but rather that if you're forced to document a feature then it probably isn't intuitive.

By the way, the redundancy of having mintTools in more then one place exists in Linux Mint ver 4...

For instance "mintInstall" and "Software Portal" are the same application

This maybe so, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it is the correct approach.

And just because something appears in more then on place doesn't make it obsolete...
Some people like to have a "Home" icon on the desktop, in the menu, in the panel, configured as a keyboard shortcut - AND as a mouse gesture - It's all about choices!

Choices are good, redundancy and confusion are bad - though our discussion proves that finding the balance can be difficult.

One of the guiding principles of Human-Computer Interaction is to maintain consistency. It's my opinion that the Mint Menu is more consistent if all of the menu entries help answer the "what do I want to do?" question, rather than using a mixture of different grouping techniques.

Though it's not too late to convince me otherwise; if you can explain why the reduced consistency and increased redundancy are offset by the benefits of the new menu entry then I will officially change my vote!

[Jernau]

As i said earlier, i think the best solution would be an option in the mintDesktop tool.
No confusion for the beginners and easy access for those who really wish to have them in a single category.

Would you suggest that the "Mint Tools" menu category is switched on or off by default?

Also, maybe it would be better to add the option to the mintMenu preferences?

Details aside, I think that this is a great compromise!

[Zwopper]

As i said earlier, i think the best solution would be an option in the mintDesktop tool.
No confusion for the beginners and easy access for those who really wish to have them in a single category.

Would you suggest that the "Mint Tools" menu category is switched on or off by default?
Also, maybe it would be better to add the option to the mintMenu preferences?
Details aside, I think that this is a great compromise!

As I said earlier I think that you would be given the choice whether to have it switched on or off at first boot
via the mintAssistant, but the default (if no active choice is made), should be on IMO.
Altogether this sounds like an even better idea then what I originally had in mind,
but ultimately it boils down to what Clem thinks about it.
The figures in the poll at the moment have an overweight to add it in some form.

[belovedmonster]

If they are also in their regular places and are thus on the menu twice then having its own entry serves no purpose but to promote the fact we have tools that other distros dont. Is a menu really the best way to promote our distros features? I would argue no, and not only is it not the appropriate place to be advertising our Mint tools it is also at the detriment of the Menu. How can you argue it is anything but confusing to have the same items be in the menu twice? Think about it, every time anyone writes documentation they are going to have to list two possible places in the menu to load them up. That is just ridiculous.

But at the same time you cant just have them in the Mint section and not in their regular place as people will expect the tool they want to be under the heading that correlates to what they want to do.

Sorry guys but this is a duff idea. It sounds perfectly reasonable and actually quite good when you first consider it, but if you actually stop and think about the implications for user interface it is really not a good idea.